Passover 14th or 15th Debate

PssOvDoor

Passover 14th or 15th Debate

G___ B___ I hate to tell you this on your page, but you are in error to have the sacrifice of the Pascal lamb on the 13th. Your error is based on your insistence that the Hebrew word translated as “until” in the phrase “Confine it until the fourteenth” means up to but not including the 14th. The transliterated Hebrew word is “ad” and is actually Strong’s H5703, H5704, H5705, and H5706. As is commonly the case, most words have several definitions and “ad” can mean “until” as you say, but it can also mean “during,” “while,” and “as long as.” All of these meanings take us into the 14th and do not stop us at the threshold of the day. The meaning that is correct is the one that best fits all the evidence. Moses is the author of all four books where information about the Exodus and the instructions for Passover are found, so we have to chose the meanings that fit all the evidence consistently. Here is the evidence that the sacrifice was on the 14th and that the day the death angel passed over Egypt was the 15th. Exodus 12:8 states, “That night they shall eat the meat with unleavened bread.” This is the night that follows killing the Passover lamb. Verse 11 tells them to eat it in expectant haste. This was not to be a leisurely meal like at a family reunion or a romantic dinner date. This was eat and be ready to run. Verse 29 states that the LORD struck down the 1st born at midnight on this night. Verse 30 tells us that Pharaoh sent word to Moses that night to leave. Verse 33 says the Egyptians urged them to leave. Verse 34 says the Israelites asked the Egyptians for valuables and the Egyptians gladly gave them what they requested. Verse 42 tells us that it was at night when the LORD kept watch to bring them out of Egypt. Verse 51 says “On this very day the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt.” Deuteronomy 16:1 specifies that it was “at night” that the LORD did this. All of the events–the eating the meal with unleavened bread, getting the word from Pharaoh to leave Egypt, getting the valuables from the Egyptians, and rolling out of Ramses–happened at night, the night time of the 15th. Proof of this is found in Numbers 28:16-17 that clearly states that the feast of unleavened bread begins on the 15th of the month and lasts for seven days. The 14th is the preparation day and is the day the Passover lamb is killed. The 15th is the day the death angel actually passed over Egypt. Numbers 33:3 confirms that it was the fifteenth day of the month that the Hebrew people left Egypt, which is the same day Pharaoh ordered them to leave. An impossible problem for the 13th being the day of the sacrifice is that if the lamb is sacrificed on the 13th, it has to be burned up at dawn the next morning, which means there will be no Passover lamb to eat on the 15th, which is the day the feast of unleavened bread begins. Scripture is clear that the feast is not on the 14th, but is on the 15th. The 13th as the day of sacrifice is just wrong.

Drdave Perry
Shalom Dr. G___ @ I hate to tell you this on your page, but you are in error to have the sacrifice of the Pascal lamb on the 13th.

You would be correct IF I had said this – However;

I clearly stated “… Passover by Torah being killed and eaten on the even/night beginning of Abib 14th; on the 14th; before the Midnite passing-over of the Death Angel.”

@ The meaning that is correct is the one that best fits all the evidence.

I agree and the evidence is – “… Passover by Torah being killed and eaten on the even/night beginning of Abib 14th; on the 14th; before the Midnite passing-over of the Death Angel.” Lev.23:5

@ the day the death angel passed over Egypt was the 15th. … This is the night that follows killing the Passover lamb. (on the 14th afternoon?) … the LORD struck down the 1st born at midnight on this night. (the 15th?) … Numbers 28:16-17 that clearly states that the feast of unleavened bread begins on the 15th of the month and lasts for seven days.

Now square that with Lev.23:5 (1) day vs :6 (7) days

@ The 14th is the preparation day and is the day the Passover lamb is killed.

Correct – “the even/night beginning of Abib 14th; on the 14th; before the Midnite passing-over of the Death Angel.” on the 14th

@ The 15th is the day the death angel actually passed over Egypt.

This is an error – 1 day too late – does not fit all the evidence.

@ which means there will be no Passover lamb to eat on the 15th, which is the day the feast of unleavened bread begins.

This is an inadvertently correct statement and fits with Lev.23:5 (1) day vs :6 (7) days

@ The 13th as the day of sacrifice is just wrong.

This is a correct statement – Again; in the post – I clearly stated “… Passover by Torah being killed and eaten on the even/night beginning of Abib 14th; on the 14th; before the Midnite passing-over of the Death Angel.” – ‘on the 14th’

Shalom

G___ B___ What do you mean by the phrase “Passover by Torah”? @Is it correct to say that your understanding of the word “even” strictly means something akin to sunset? That is one meaning, but if that is the only meaning you envision, then at what time of day was the evening sacrifice made? It wasn’t sunset. The evening sacrifice was conducted in the middle of the afternoon, about 3 o’clock when the sun was half-way between the zenith and the horizon. Thus, the word “even” or “evening” applies to the last half of the afternoon to sunset. The sacrifice of the Passover lamb was done in the middle of the afternoon on the 14th, its body was skewered and roasted for about 6 hours which would now be after sunset on the 15th, the meal was eaten on the early night part of the 15th exactly as Numbers 28:17 requires. Normally the meal would begin sometime between 8 to 10 pm. @Leviticus 23:5 states that the LORD’s Passover begins in the even of the 14th. Why doesn’t it say Passover begins at evening of the 15th? Remember that Passover is a kodesh mikrawh day, a holy convocation day, a Sabbath, and the edges of the Sabbath are to be treated as holy. A short time before sunset leading up to the Sabbath is to be guarded and treasured as though it is part of the Sabbath and should be considered as being part of it. While the Sabbath technically begins when the sun slips behind the horizon, the attitude of the people is to exhibit the Sabbath reverence before the sun disappears. Sabbath prayers and lighting of the Sabbath candles are done a short time before sunset. Thus, the 14th on the evening that leads into the 15th begins the LORD’s Passover. The very next verse, v. 6, confirms that the feast is on the 15th, which perfectly matches what Moses wrote in Numbers 28:17. The word “Passover” applies to the 15th because that is the day the death angel passed over Egypt after the people had eaten the Pascal lamb on the evening of the 15th. Claiming that the death angel passed over Egypt on the 14th and the Passover meal was eaten on the 14th is a violation of Leviticus 23:5-6 and Numbers 28:16-17, as well as all the other places where the sequence is described. Shalom

Drdave Perry
Dr. G___ @ then at what time of day was the evening sacrifice made? It wasn’t sunset

What some 25 centuries later? By errant Pharisees not following Torah – Mk.7:7?

@The evening sacrifice was conducted in the middle of the afternoon, about 3 o’clock when the sun was half-way between the zenith and the horizon

Yes; By errant Pharisees not following Torah Mk.7:7

@ Thus, the word “even” or “evening” applies to the last half of the afternoon to sunset.

Wrong –

At the time of Ex.12 (from Gen.1) – ‘even’ meant – that at the point as the residual light of one day closed (the still visible setting orb of the sun), being equal to the defused light dissipating (the now set orb of the sun past the horizon) of the coming night of the next day – at sundown. This residual light and defused light being equal or ‘even’ – Hence; Every successive day has 2; 1 ending and 1 beginning, like a coupled train ergo haAveriym; – or between the evens/evenings.

Some minor variant form of the above is understood by the Essenes, Sadduces, Samaritians, Karaites (certain sects), (with man nothing is 100%) – no doubt certain minor faction sects of Pharisees (7 major, uncounted for minor) and certain minor sects of Jews together with the major 1′s listed.

It is of interest to note that Lk. 22:10 “… a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; …” would indicate an Essene – for women classically carried the water in Jewish society.

@ its body was skewered and roasted for about 6 hours

Now that would depend on how hot the fire was – 2hrs is sufficient – verse?

@would now be after sunset on the 15th, the meal was eaten on the early night part of the 15th exactly as Numbers 28:17 requires.

Wrong –

Nu 28:16 ¶ And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of YHWH.

17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

Exactly as Lev.23:5 (1) day vs :6 (7) days – tells it

@ Passover is a kodesh mikrawh day, a holy convocation day, a Sabbath,

Wrong –

Passover the fourteenth day of the first month is a *memorial* not a Sabbath Ex.12:14

@ A short time before sunset leading up to the Sabbath is to be guarded and treasured as though it is part of the Sabbath and should be considered as being part of it

Only in Rabbinic lore

@Sabbath prayers and lighting of the Sabbath candles are done a short time before sunset.

Only in Rabbinic lore. By what verse?

@ The very next verse, v. 16, confirms that the feast is on the 15th, which perfectly matches what Moses wrote in Numbers 28:17

Yeah for 7 days – You forgot – what Nu 28:16 actually says = to Exactly as Lev.23:5 (1) day vs :6 (7) days – tells it

@Claiming that the death angel passed over Egypt on the 14th and the Passover meal was eaten on the 14th is a violation of Leviticus 23:5-6 and Numbers 28:16-17, as well as all the other places where the sequence is described.

Wrong –

Please actually read it!

Shalom

G___ B___ Do you not believe the Gospels? Jesus was our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), so we can see the events as they transpired there and the events that were not under the control of any Pharisee, but only under the control of God. Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide the time line that about the 6th hour the sun went dark. Six hours from sunrise is noon. About the ninth hour Jesus died. The ninth hour from sunrise is about 3 pm. See Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:33-34; and Luke 23:44. Then see that Matthew 27:58 and Mark 15:42 identify this as “even.” After even had arrived, Joseph of Arimathaea requested the body of Jesus, Pilate was surprised to hear that He was already dead and called for the centurion to confirm His death. Nicodemus had time to buy spices and the three of them (John, Joseph, and Nicodemus) took the body of Jesus and laid it in the tomb. This is all done before sunset as Luke 23:54 tells us they made note of where He was laid and hurried home because the Sabbath was drawing near. All of this happens before sunset and the Pharisees had absolutely no control over the natural events. It doesn’t matter whether you’re reading the Old Testament or the New Testament, the word “even” or “evening” is a reference to a time from 3 pm to sunset. @A year old lamb takes anywhere from 5 to 6.5 hours to roast, depending on the size of the lamb. Two hours is not nearly long enough. @How do you explain the plain text of both Leviticus 23:6 and Numbers 28:17 that the feast is on the 15th of the month? You tell me to actually read it, which I obviously have, but you haven’t offered an explanation to the plain, obvious words of scripture that the feast with unleavened bread is on the 15th of the month and lasts for seven days. The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, not the 14th. The 14th is the preparation day, not the day of the feast nor the day the death angel passed over Egypt. Shalom

Drdave Perry .
Dr. G___ B___ – Surely you are wise enough to know nothing can be above Torah or apologize it to another conclusion Isa.8:20

@ [Yahshua] was our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), so we can see the events as they transpired there and the events that were not under the control of any Pharisee, but only under the control of [Yah].

Correct – that’s why the events of the Lk.22 Passover meal – they follow Torah.

@ Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide the time line that about the 6th hour the sun went dark. Six hours from sunrise is noon. About the ninth hour Jesus died.

The events of His Death Cannot rewrite Torah or apologize it to another conclusion Isa.8:20

Luke 22:19-20 shows Yahshua substituting His Body (w/ bread) and Blood (w/ [n\a] wine) during the Passover meal – which stands today – at the proper time – It does not matter what errant Jews and Pharisees did against Torah – 1st Their trial of Yahshua already broke Torah law all by itself

@ This is all done before sunset as Luke 23:54 tells us they made note of where He was laid and hurried home because the Sabbath was drawing near.

Correct – The Feast of UnlBrd – NOT – Passover – Again – Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover vs :6 (7) days UnlBrd

@A year old lamb takes anywhere from 5 to 6.5 hours to roast, depending on the size of the lamb. Two hours is not nearly long enough.

By what Suzy Homemaker recipe are you trying to change Torah by?

In haste hi temp 2hrs tops – Not a leisure low temp BBQ

@How do you explain the plain text of both Leviticus 23:6 and Numbers 28:17 that the feast is on the 15th of the month?

You go round and round and will not see – That the feast of :6 (7) days UnlBrd starts on the 15th – Passover is Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover is on the 14th

@ The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, not the 14th.

Correct – this finally agrees with Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover vs :6 (7) days UnlBrd

The 14th is the Passover day, the day of the ‘Memorial’ feast – it is also a preparation day – it is not a Sabbath – it is the day the death angel passed over Egypt at midnite. It is the Night to be remembered/commemorated with the Passover meal at the beginning even/night of the 14th – on the 14th

Shalom

G___ B___ The events of the death of Jesus do not rewrite Torah, but are in perfect harmony with it. YOU claim it is a rewriting because the perfect fulfillment as expressed in the Gospels is different from your position. @According to Exodus 12, Passover is eaten with unleavened bread, bitter herbs, etc., so Passover is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The feast lasts for seven day. The reference to Passover being on the 14th only applies to the killing of the lamb in the late afternoon of the 14th in preparation for the meal eaten on the 15th. The 14th is not a day of unleavened bread, but the meal is to be eaten with unleavened bread. You can’t eat the meal on the 15th without first sacrificing the lamb on the 14th. Exodus 12 is very clear about the 14th being the day to kill the lamb and Leviticus 23:6 and Numbers 28:17 are very clear that the 15th is the day for eating the meal. The lamb is sacrificed in the late afternoon of the 14th, roasted for whatever time is required which would take the roasting into the 15th, and eaten on the early night of the 15th. The death angel flys over Egypt after the meal is to be eaten on the 15th, thus the 15th is Passover. @The angel did not pass over Egypt on the 14th. The 14th is the day before the feast is eaten on the 15th, and the angel did not pass over Egypt before the meal was eaten. You need to put everything on a simple time line to see that the meal is eaten before the death angel does His work. @You are correct that the 14th is not a Sabbath. But Passover on the 15th is a Sabbath. Leviticus 23 uses the words kodesh mikrawh or holy convocation day. @I’ve laid out repeatedly the scriptural time line for the sequence of the events of Passover being on the 15th. I’ve left nothing out and I’ve shown that you have misunderstood a few key words that have tripped you up. Nothing you’ve written shows that my interpretation of these events is in error. I see no point in responding further.

Drdave Perry .
Dr. G___ B___

The events of the Lk.22 Passover seder meal of Yahshua do not rewrite Torah, but are in perfect harmony with it.

@According to Exodus 12, Passover is eaten with unleavened bread, bitter herbs, etc., so Passover is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Wrong – Again – Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover 14th vs :6 (7) days UnlBrd starting the 15th – quote you – ” The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, not the 14th”

@ The 14th is not a day of unleavened bread, but the meal is to be eaten with unleavened bread.

This is a correct statement – and agrees with Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover 14th vs :6 (7) days UnlBrd starting the 15th

@You can’t eat the meal on the 15th without first sacrificing the lamb on the 14th. Exodus 12 is very clear about the 14th being the day to kill the lamb and Leviticus 23:6 and Numbers 28:17 are very clear that the 15th is the day for eating the meal.

You can’t eat the meal on the 14th without first sacrificing the lamb on the 14th.

You can’t put blood on the door on the 14th without first sacrificing the lamb on the 14th.

You can’t have the midnite passing over of the Death Angel on the 14th without first sacrificing the lamb on the 14th. etc.

@Exodus 12 is very clear about the 14th being the day to kill the lamb

Yes – in the beginning even/evening of the 14th

@and Leviticus 23:6 and Numbers 28:17 are very clear that the 15th is the day for eating the meal.

the meal – Passover? is the 14th

Yes – (7) days UnlBrd starting the 15th

@ The death angel flys over Egypt after the meal is to be eaten on the 15th, thus the 15th is Passover.

This is so very bald faced Wrong! And directly contradicts;

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth *day* of the first month at even is the YHWH’s passover.

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the YHWH: seven *days* ye must eat unleavened bread.

passover is not the same observance as the feast of unleavened bread

This is so very obvious – But you won’t see it.

@Nothing you’ve written shows that my (GB) interpretation of these events is in error.

Only the disregarded evidence of Torah!

@ I see no point in responding further.

I full well agree – until you are ready to admit and agree with Torah; Lev.23:5 (1) day Passover 14th vs :6 (7) days UnlBrd starting the 15th – There remains no point

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