Melkizedeq Attack 8
Hello, Dave. As promised here is the response i said I would give you. it has been posted in the group, but as they have a tendency to remove things i thought i would send it to you directly.
In a recent discussion regarding a topic posted on this forum, Drdave Perry made some startling comments regarding the (alleged) termination of the Levitical priesthood. He expressed his views, which he has every right to do so, but in a very belittling and disrespectful manner to dissenting members of the group, me included. Regrettably, the thread has since been deleted, so I can’t cite the claims made verbatim. However, I promised to challenge what he said. In light of that promise, I will now proceed to do just that.
In his statements, Drdave ** claimed, and I apologise if I miss anything here given the absence of the thread material to which I am referring:
Joy Morgan ++
++1.) That I was an agent of misinformation. (That claim can be judged by others after reading my response. Personal opinions on my person are of little to no relevance, but defending the word is!)
** Yes Yah’s Word is
++2.) That Melchizedek was not a priest after the manner of the Levitical high priest and that he was not a king in accordance with YHWH’s promises to Yehudah; this is because, according to Drdave, the tribes of Levi and Yehudah were not yet extant at the time of Melchizedek.
**extant – currently or actually existing – Levi and Yehudah were not yet extant at the time of Melchizedek of Gen.14 – They did not exist – That is plain to see.
++3.) That Yeshua did not have Levitical lineage as well as Yehudite.
** This twists the obvious; Yahshua did have a Yehudite (Jewish) lineage Heb.7:13-15
++4.) That there is no connection between the marriage of Aaron and Elisabeth and the marriage of Zechariah and Elisabeth the mother of John the immerser.
** This tedium is trying – You admitted Zechariah’s Elisabeth was Jewish – ergo Mary was Jewish
++5.) That the Levitical priesthood has disappeared.
** Yahshua say so Himself – Lk.13:35
++So let’s take a look at his claims.
Ok, Shem is Melchizedek. Let’s get that out there from the get-go. If you do not know why Shem is Melchizedek, a synopsis can be read here: http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/faq/ShemMelchizedek.html
** A qualified – Agreed
++Shem/Melchizedek was the official priest of YHWH and king of Salem, an early name for Jerusalem. He was the progenitor of Jacob. Jacob fathered, among others, the tribes of Levi and Judah.
**@Shem, … He was the progenitor of Jacob. Jacob fathered, among others, the tribes of Levi and Judah. – among 10 others – now you defacto admit Shem came before therefore not of or from Levi and Judah his down line.
++Shem/Melchizedek was, therefore, both a Levite and a Yehudite as both tribes were in his loins, so to speak. There are numerous occasions in Scripture when a person’s future offspring are promised, blessed and defined in advance of their conception, even generations beforehand, so we have plenty of precedents here. I’m more than happy to supply specifics for this (and for anything else I have stated, or will state) to anyone interested. For now, it is sufficient to say that Shem was already the high priest of what would become the Levitical priesthood, and that he was already the king ruling from Jerusalem on the throne of David- just as Yeshua will be both priest and king ruling from Jerusalem on His return as YHWH promised to David.
** Your logic is inverted & catiwampus – lineage moves in 1 direction from the original to the progeny not the other way around
@Shem was already the high priest of what would become the Levitical priesthood – This is just too lame. The Levitical priesthood came because of Mlk Cov’t breach – Shem had no part of that.
@ Yeshua will be both priest and king ruling from Jerusalem on His return as YHWH promised to David. – This is more of your random association – David was never promised a priesthood.
Besides this was gutted by 1Kgs.9:5-9 confirmed by Lk.13:35
++Now David was a descendant of the tribe of Judah via Pharez, not Zarah. Pharez was the brother of Zarah, the sons of Judah, but the transition of the Davidic dynasty was to progress through the Pharez alone. Isn’t it amazing that Yeshua was born through the descent of the house of Pharez. I hope this will become a more profound truth as I progress with this discourse. I ask that readers bear in mind: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.” Genesis 49:10
** Do you understand that Genesis 49:10 is the premier change of/in Torah? Back to the Melkizedeq Priesthood! Confirmed by Gal.3:19 & Heb.7:12.
++Genesis 49:10 is an amazing promise. Its fulfillment commenced with the deliberate and symbolic marriage of Aaron the representative high priest of Levi to Elisabeth the representative of the future monarchy of Judah. I’ll do my best, at least, the best I can without typing an entire book, to give some insight on how this union was destined not only to last forever, but also to produce a ruler after the order of Shem/Melchizedek who, like Shem, would qualify to be both the high priest of the Levitical priesthood and the rightful heir to the Pharez line of the house of David. All being well, the strings will tie together as I go on.
** There you go with some whack assessment of Elisabeth the Jew – Elisabeth is not the point Mary is – Biblically can you produce anything to support such a claim – in the face of Heb.7:13-15 / Rev.5:5?
++Shifting our focus to Drdave’s claim that the marriage of Aaron and Elisabeth is irrelevant to the marriage of Zachariah and Elisabeth, and vice-versa, let’s see where this claim leads us.
Aaron and Elisabeth’s marriage created a merging of the tribes of Levi and the tribes of Judah (if you are unfamiliar with either genealogy, or both, please don’t hesitate to ask me). This union gave birth to the first-born sons of the tribe of Levi/Judah which would go on to implement the function of a priesthood designed to take away the sins of the people via its sacrificial system. Does any of this sound familiar?
**This is preposterous – back then the lineage was determined by the Father (By Torah still today) – And how ’bout all the other cross over combinations of 12 (actually 13 + converts) tribes a potential for 156 + cross over combos multiplied by 1000’s of times and that over centuries. Yet you want to make this strictly about Aaron and Elisabeth drawing your tale down to Zachariah and Elisabeth. Just because Elisabeth was Mary’s cousin does not mean Elisabeth & Mary had the same mother and Father. Mary was a Jewess this does not change just because an aunt or cousin marries outside her tribe.
++The first-born sons make blood sacrifice to make atonement for the people and take away the sins of the guilty by the blood of the innocent? It should do. On numerous occasions from the word, we see Israel’s redemption and its redeemers emerging from the union of Levi and Judah as I will show (I will also show this truth from the Levitical family of the Maccabees). Likewise, John the immerser was the product of the union between a Levite (Zachariah) and a Yehudite (Elisabeth). John immersed Yeshua and in doing so, once again demonstrated that salvation comes through the Levi-Judah nexus;
** John immersing Yahshua shows the transference of Priesthood from Lev. to Mlk. – not some co-mingling “nexus” sameness – Proof? Mt.11:11 if you can understand.
++John was the one who proclaimed the Moshiach, immersed the Moshiach and inaugurated and prepared the atoning sacrifice through the Levitical priesthood in the process. Beautiful! Thematic! Never changing! All these are types and nothing is coincidental. Incidentally, Yeshua waited until the age of 30 to be immersed and begin His ministry. 30 is the minimum age requirement for admission into the function of priest in the Levitical system. His immersion was a Mikvah as also required for officiating priests.
**Yes – Hence the transference from Lev. to Mlk. – John even admitting he was not worthy.
++So we see the offering, the priest and the king was all heralded and inaugurated through the Levitical system. I will now show that Yeshua is this atoning, priestly king according to His dual Levite and Yehudite lineage.
**There is no ‘His dual Levite and Yehudite lineage’ Heb.7:13-15 – Yahshua is the ‘Lion of’ Who?
++Yeshua is the first and only ruler who possess the claim to rightly and simultaneously be high priest of the Levitical priesthood; He belongs to the only Levitical line with the authority to offer blood sacrifices and enter into the Holy of Holies, and He will sit on the throne of David ruling from Jerusalem in the 1,000-years reign to come. He alone fulfills the requirements; He alone is like Shem/Melchizedek in this.
**If He is like Shem – (which I can agree) – Then like Shem, Yahshua has no tie to a Plan ‘B’ for Cov’t breach Levitical priesthood.
++As I alluded to, Yeshua is of the house of Zadok from His Levitical side. The house of Zadok is the only descendant house of Aaron which is permitted to perform sacrifice. YHWH never rejected the Levitical priesthood and simply exterminated the differing lines within it save the line of Zadok. This line descends directly from Aaron, through El’eazar, through Phineas (to whom YHWH again promised an everlasting priesthood, adding further protection to the Levitical priesthood. Phineas is a direct progenitor of Zadok), and down to John the Immerser and Yeshua.
**Again – like Shem, Yahshua has no tie to a Plan ‘B’ for Cov’t breach Levitical priesthood. This includes Phinehas, Zadok, Aaron and his Sons all Levites – Yahshua & John the Immerser were at best 2nd cousins in no way insuring a Levite lineage to Yahshua.
++All this was engineered by YHWH from the beginning of creation to retain the Levitical priesthood function forever while destroying the lines of Aaron’s other sons which rebelled, and while barring the admission of those who could not prove their appropriate lineage (Nehemiah 7:53-64). YHWH does not break covenant, ever! (Psalm 89:34; Exodus 28:1; 29:9; 40:15; Numbers 18:7-19; 25:13; Deuteronomy 18:5). The Levitical priesthood has always been, and will always be, indispensable to His plans. Salvation was and is built around it.
** There you go again making outlandish statements that the facts do not square with.
@The Levitical priesthood has always been, and will always be, – This statement is a direct lie – there was none such till after the Ex.32 Mlk. Cov’t. Breach. Num.3:12
@All this was engineered by YHWH from the beginning of creation to retain the Levitical priesthood – Not a chance – the Levitical priesthood was the Plan ‘B’ concession rather than complete annihilation Ex.32:10. How glorious is that?
@YHWH does not break covenant, ever! Right -OR- His pre-packaged pre-awareness (Ex.19:5-6)
It is not some illegal change to enact the pre-awareness condition of change.
@The Levitical priesthood has always been, and will always be, indispensable to His plans. Salvation was and is built around it. – Wrong! Ezk.20:10-25, Acts 15:10 / Heb.7:11
His plan of Salvation was always built around Gen.26:5 – Melkizedeq Law! Rom.4:16
++In the future, Yeshua will build the 3rd temple. This temple will have Yeshua as the high priest of the Levitical priesthood with the house of Zadok in attendance. Ezekiel 44 proclaims this truth while clarifying precisely why certain lines of the priesthood were destroyed. So contrary to Drdave’s statements, the priesthood was not disestablished. He also made the claim that the priesthood were lost and that the destruction of the temple was evidence that the promises YHWH made regarding the everlasting covenant had somehow been dissolved.
** @In the future, Yeshua will build the 3rd temple. – Is that so? To quote you – Perhaps [you] never heard of the Temple Institute. Or understand wherewith you mis-speak – the Temple Institute is man’s efforts Not Yahshua’s.
You mis-state the situation again – Yes Yahshua as the high Mlk. priest will certainly be over all that is the Levitical priesthood if there will be such. And what eludes you is that no past from death to life Mlk. Prst will ever be under even the Highest Lev. Priest (Mt.11:11)
Also if you are not a Levite you have no part of the Levitical priesthood you insist to banner. 1Ptr.2:9 is your only priesthood choice.
But the point is & always will be Everlasting! Without end! Remember? Where are they? Any of them? Davidic King – Lev. Prsthd – Any of them? For the last 2000yrs – To crow about it & demand it to be so when it is not – when it has been not – For the last 2000yrs and before is just flat out plain insanity.
To ignore Yahshua’s Lk.13:35 pronounced lament and what that means is just beyond dishonest & undiscerning.
++Clearly, Ezekiel demonstrates that a temporary suspension of function due to the destruction of the temple does not constitute a disbanding of the priesthood, and is careful to point out that as part of the reign of Moshiach, that scenario will be remedied by the construction of a third. Drdave also made the bizarre assertion that “Levi had disappeared” and that “no one knows who they are.”
**@Drdave also made the bizarre assertion that “Levi had disappeared” and that “no one knows who they are.” This is what is ‘bizarre’ – Quotes indicate I physically said or wrote this – check your records & get your facts straight. I did not!
++A quick internet search would have sufficed to prevent him making such silly claims. The Levitical priests have always continued to function in Judaism, have always been known, and are now being trained up in preparation to perform sacrifices in a third temple. Perhaps he’d never heard of the Temple Institute. It’s plain silly to make such claims. But anyway, as said previously, Ezekiel makes it clear the 3rd temple will allow once again for the Levitical priests of the house of Zadok to perform blood sacrifices;
**What is ‘plain silly’ is your demand that – The Levitical priests … now being trained – What they do forget? When did that happen? Hmmm 2000yrs ago?
@The Levitical priests have always continued to function in Judaism – How without a Temple? – In Jerusalem? – Talk about ‘bizarre’&’silly’ – Israel has only been a Nation for 67yrs Hmmm what’s the span of 67 from 2000? Puts a big hole in your unbroken story – That you must square with!
Ezekiel makes it clear the 3rd temple will allow once again… ??? once again… ??? Indicates a lapse in your everlasting without end model – How can that be?
++Yeshua will be high priest and head of state. This is what it means to be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, not some supplanting new system dreamed up by the author of Hebrews- either Paul or one of his Hellenistic disciples.
**Ahh – now you know more that Paul – Who quoted Ps.110 (Heb.7:21) – Now you know more than David too? I guess you don’t like Peter either (2Ptr.3:15-16) – “Our beloved brother Paul” Which Apostle do you like? You have set yourself at the arbitor of Bible. Where does this imagination stop?
++I’d like to finish by looking at the bloodline of Yeshua’s mother, Miriam. We’ll see how the Levitical line of the Maccabees ties together with the Davidic line of Judah to produce Miriam. Thus giving Yeshua dual Levite and Yehudite heritage.
**Don’t forget pagan heritage thru Rahab & Ruth – What’d He get then?
Luk_1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, **of the house of David**; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
++The historic genealogy of Miriam can be traced back to Janna Maccabee. Janna wed Eliub and this marriage produced a child named El’eazar. El’eazar fathered three children. One of his sons was Mathan. Mathan married Alexandra the daughter of Hyracanus II. Hyracanus was the brother of Salome Maccabee. Salome was the woman to whom El’eazar was married and with whom he had his three children.
One of the daughters of El’eazar and Salome was Rachel. She gave birth to Joseph of Arimathea. Her husband was Mathat. Mathat was of the house of Nathan who was Davidic/Yehudite. Mathat’s wife then went on to birth Joachim and Zacharia. Joachim in turn fathered Miriam the mother of Yeshua.
Boom! Throughout human history, YHWH has had the Levitical tribe and its everlasting priesthood right at the heart of redemption for His fallen people.
Drdaveperry, you simply do not understand the topic about which you have been so quick to be pompous and condescending.
**Joy your problem is your absolute statements are less than accurate let alone absolute. Then you revere Apocrypha and any other provocative source which is not Bible; for a reason & that over Bible and castigate those in the Bible based on your personal drothers.
Boom! Throughout human history … ??? Adam&Eve, Noah to Abraham, Issac, little boy Jacob ??? That human history? – This’ll be a shock but there was No Levi, No Levi Tribe & let alone a Plan ‘B’ Levitical priesthood that came some 400yrs later. That human history?
The biblical Yahshua is called ‘the Lion of … ? Judah’ for a reason Gen_49:9 , Hos_5:14, Rev_5:5
Now – I guess you don’t like Moses, Hosea or John now either
++So let’s close with a resume of the facts: a.)
** Yes; let’s close with and resume of the reassertion conundrum of the less-than facts
++1.) Melchizedek is Shem. Melchizedek appears as Melchizedek in only two places in the Tanakh, and in only four verses in total (Genesis 14:18, 19 and 20; Psalm 110:4). That’s it outside of Paul’s and/or his disciples’ writings.
**Honestly? This is outside of any disciples’ writings. Or did you miss that? Or maybe intentionally intend to misrepresent that point to ahh ooh mislead?
++Next to nothing is divulged about this king and priest in the verses in which he appears. There is no mention of anything regarding a future priesthood which will supplant a temporary one,
** So now you admit the Levitical priesthood was temporary
You misrepresent again – The Melkizedeq Priesthood was the original – That’s why Heb.7:12 is accurate – a ‘change’/reversion back to the original
@”There is no mention of anything regarding a future priesthood which will supplant a temporary one”
– Read Prv.25:2
++and evidently there is nothing contained in the verses to preclude the establishment of what would be- from the perspective of Genesis 14:18-20- a future priestly function. This future priestly function, it is stated, will be everlasting (Exodus 40:15 & Deuteronomy 18:5).
** @evidently there is nothing contained in the verses to preclude the establishment of what would be- from the perspective of Genesis 14:18-20- a future priestly function. – Yes the Melkizedeq Priesthood – but, then you do not discern & mix your metaphors saying Exodus 40:15 & Deuteronomy 18:5 which is Levitical. After the Mlk Cov’t breach of Ex.32
everlasting from ‘olam’ – does not always or only mean our concept of Forever, Eternal, Everlasting, Evermore or ‘for all time’. ‘A concealed – vanishing point – out of mind’ means; for a really long extended period of time and does not only mean any of the forgoing but does not exclude any of them either – discerned context is the key.
++So how did Paul and/or his disciples manage to fabricate an entire theological system on four verses which tell us nothing more than: Melchizedek was the high priest of YHWH, that he was king of Jerusalem (though the city was know by a different name at the time), that he blessed Abraham and YHWH, and that he received a tenth of the spoils plundered by Abraham.
** …Paul and/or his disciples … – You forgot 1Ptr.2:9 & Rev.5:10, etc.
++Further to this, we read in the Psalms that the Moshiach will be a priest of YHWH forever according to the order of Melchizedek. However, the word used for ‘order’ is the Hebrew word ‘Dibrah’, and without any other information to go, simply means ‘after the manner of’. Well what exactly was the manner of Melchizedek? We cannot say without speculating and leaning on our own understanding, which is utterly forbidden. What we can safely go on is this- Melchizedek’s priesthood in no way excluded the establishment of the Levitical priestly function, nor will any system ever replace it so long as there is time. ‘Forever’ hasn’t been and gone, nor will it until our current time/space reality passes away and that won’t be until after the thousand-year reign of Mashiach.
**everlasting from ‘olam’ – does not always or only mean our concept of Forever, Eternal, Everlasting, Evermore or ‘for all time’. ‘A concealed – vanishing point – out of mind’ means; for a really long extended period of time and does not only mean any of the forgoing but does not exclude any of them either – discerned context is the key.
++b.) The writings of Paul and/or his disciples cannot be used to justify their own writings. If it isn’t in the Torah and the prophets, it’s nowhere in YHWH’s authorised Word (Amos 3:7). The claim that Kepha regarded Paul’s Epistles to be ‘Scripture’ is a bogus one for a number of reasons: 1.) Kepha was familiar with the methodology employed by the Hebrews when deciding whether or not something was the Word of YHWH. A writings or book required at the very least to be theologically consistent, historically accurate- time, location, persons, etc., and must be prophetic.
** What is ‘bogus’ is your twist truth error laden ramblings – That disregard the Bible & biblical record
++c.) The idea of the Levitical priesthood having to become redundant in order for Yeshua to fulfill His role as high priest is unequivocally wrong and unnecessary:
**’ redundant’ do you know the definition – a useless repeat? This does not make sense!
Mt.11:11, Heb.7:7 – Oh but now you don’t like Matthew now either or the Yahshua he quoted.
++1.) As already stated, the high priest function of Melchizedek did not preclude the high priest function of Aaron, nor the function of the Levitical priesthood.
** this is your whacky assertion – Mt.11:11, Heb.7:7 & others proves otherwise
++2.) Yeshua has levitical blood through His mother. Miriam was of the tribe of Yehudah, which qualified Yeshua for David’s throne; and she also had Levitical blood in her genealogy. This qualified Yeshua for the role of high priest within the Levitical system. He is a perfect high priest of YHWH and king of Jerusalem just as Melchizedek. This is what the Psalmist means by the Moshiach being a high priest forever after the manner of Melchizedek. Yeshua has married the perfection of Melchizedek’s priestly and kingly capacities to the Levitical priestly function, and for the first time within the Levitcal priestly function we now have a high priest who doesn’t need to offer sacrifices for His own sins, unlike all who went before Him.
** Yeshua has levitical blood through His mother Miriam – even if in some minuscule way – don’t forget the other tribes of pagan heritage thru Rahab & Ruth was does that say?
Heb.7:13-15 along with Rev_5:5 is the definitive narrative
++3. The Levitical priesthood was married to the Yehudite Messianic bloodline in the marriage of Aaron the high priest to Elisabeth, so given this truth with that of Miriam’s direct Levitical bloodline, we see yet again that there is absolutely no need for any change of priestly function. Nothing in the entire Word of YHWH supports a change of priestly function. Nothing at all.
** Nothing at all ??? Heb.7:12 – More – less than absolute statements that make you look ridiculous
d.) We should all look forward to the millennial reign of Yeshua. His kingdom will be preceded over by Himself as both king and high priest, just like the reign of Melchizedek; the Levitical priesthood will have their third temple spoken of by Ezekiel.
**This too is not what it seems; Read
Answer this Yahshua is called by Bible; The Lion of Judah – from the Tribe of Judah
Tell me biblically where is Yahshua ever called by Bible; The ___? of Levi ???
This is bottom line theology – I do not care how grand the construct – what is this anchored to?
++ Thanks for taking the time to read.
If it does turn out that Shem and Melchizedek are the same person, this scripture should prove no stumbling block, because it could be interpreted to mean that priesthood authority commenced with Adam and came through the fathers, even till Noah, and then to Shem. – pseudepigrapha.com
** [meaning] that priesthood authority [Melkizedeq only] commenced with Adam and came through the fathers, even till Noah, and then to Shem. – Good – Finally; then to Abraham, Issac, the unmarried Jacob – No Levi involved or Lev. Priesthood till after 400+yrs – Till after the Mlk. Cov’t Break Ex.32. (Num.3:12)
Acts 17:11 – Yahs Esteem